His loved ones affectionately call him “Athos.” A philosophy candidate and law graduate, André-Alain Atundu Liongo is a man who needs no introduction. A intelligence officer (espionage), he served as an advisor at the Zairian embassy in Paris and Brussels before being promoted to Zairian ambassador to Rwanda under Juvénal Habyarimana. That was in February 1987. He spent two years in the Land of a Thousand Hills. As Rwandans commemorate the 31st anniversary of the 1994 genocide, Congo Indépendant spoke with him. INTERVIEW.
Your parents are originally from “Greater Equateur,” specifically Mongala. Yet, you were born in September 1948 in Kisangani (Tshopo). How do you explain this?
My father, Louis Atundu (Budja), and my mother, Marie Eboma (Ngombe from Lisala), had to leave the city of Bumba to “exile” themselves in Kisangani to get married. At the time, it was difficult for two young people from different tribes to wed.
How does one become an intelligence officer?
In my experience, you don’t apply for a job to be hired in the “services.” You are rather spotted and approached. If the contact goes well, recruitment follows.
Would it be indiscreet to know who “spotted” you?
I suppose I was spotted by an older brother from the neighborhood. He was a friend of Edouard Mokolo wa Mpombo and Jean Seti Yale. These individuals headed the Foreign and Interior departments of the National Security at the time. This older brother probably spoke well of me to them. They took the time to observe my behavior, particularly the seriousness I put into my studies. I later learned that Mr. Mokolo was present at my law degree graduation. He wanted to see me in person. I was contacted afterward and went through the entire recruitment process.
In February 1987, President Mobutu appointed you ambassador to Rwanda. As you know, Rwandans commemorated the 31st anniversary of the “genocide against the Tutsi,” as they say there, this Monday, April 7th. During your stay, did you perceive any signs foreshadowing a fratricidal war between Hutus and Tutsis?
Yes and no! Yes, because it had happened in Burundi first. Unless I’m mistaken, that conflict occurred in 1988. Burundian Hutus had to flee to Rwanda. We told ourselves that what happened there could happen in Rwanda. At the time, the government in Kigali was well in control. The Hutu refugees were integrated into the country.
Frankly, who do you think ordered and carried out the downing of the Falcon 50 that was carrying President Juvénal Habyarimana and his Burundian counterpart Cyprien Ntaryamira? This question is directed to the former intelligence officer.
I have no conclusive evidence. I left Kigali permanently in 1989, a year before the RPF rebellion broke out on October 1, 1990. Logically, I never believed the theory blaming “Hutu extremists” for this attack. In my view, the assassins are to be found among the Tutsi circles of the Rwandan Patriotic Front.
Since the Inkotanyi came to power in Kigali, the new masters of Rwanda barely conceal a certain hostility, first towards Mobutu’s Zaire and now towards Felix Tshisekedi’s DRC.
Question: is a normalization of relations between the two countries possible under Kagame’s presidency?
Why not! Why not, if Kagame’s Rwanda renounced its neo-colonial ambition? An ambition that consists of occupying part of the Congolese territory while plundering the country’s mineral resources. Rwanda must, above all, be in good faith in international relations. These conditions seem difficult to achieve at the moment. Since Marshal Mobutu’s departure, Yoweri Museveni and Paul Kagame have been vying for leadership in the Great Lakes sub-region. Remember the war in Kisangani in June 2000 between the armies of Uganda and Rwanda. To answer your question precisely, it seems difficult for Kagame to change his stance.
Kagame disputes the border demarcation. What do you say?
He only has to approach the former colonial powers, namely Germany and Belgium, to be enlightened on this subject. To my knowledge, a Rwandan population chose to stay in Congo rather than join Rwanda, a German colony, on the grounds that the Germans were too harsh. These Rwandans were not identified as members of any Congolese tribe. They were immigrants. Thus, no ethnological map lists Hutus and Tutsis among the Congolese ethnicities. There were several waves. First, there was the Banyarwanda Immigration Mission (MIB), which worked to populate Kivu and send labor to the Katanga mines. Then there were the 1958 refugees. Finally, there was the collective attribution of Zairian nationality to the Banyarwanda in 1971 by the “Bisengimana Law.” This was repealed in 1981. The damage was done. To give themselves a reference identity, the Banyarwanda concerned borrowed the name of their place of residence: Mulenge. In our tribes, a community is identified by its language, not by its place of residence. This is simply because we were nomads. In any case, if President Kagame were in good faith, the presence in Congo of a population that speaks your language cannot serve as a pretext to interfere in the country’s internal affairs. As we can see, it is Kagame’s neo-colonial ambition that is the source of our problems.
What do you say to those who allege that Paul Kagame co-managed the DRC during “Joseph Kabila’s” eighteen years in power?
Having not been in the inner circles of power, I cannot affirm anything. However, I remember the “clash” that took place in March 2009 between Vital Kamerhe, then president of the National Assembly, and President Kabila. The latter had authorized the entry of Rwandan troops into our territory without respecting the procedure in this matter. Anecdotally, the rumor was that Rwandan authorities’ approval was needed to be appointed to a position in the DRC. One thing is certain: President Kagame had influence over his then Congolese counterpart. It is needless to emphasize that the mixing and integration allowed the infiltration of our institutions by Rwandan elements whose mission was to defend Kagame’s interests.
On Wednesday, April 9th, a government delegation was to begin the second phase of talks with M23 representatives in Doha. What should be negotiated, in your opinion?
The Congolese state has prerequisites. This is a red line that must not be crossed, particularly the inviolability of borders. There is no question of repeating the mixing and integration experience in the army. These operations are causing us so many problems today. If the “new version” of the M23 were to set inadmissible conditions, the Congolese state would have to draw the consequences.
How do you react to the statement attributed to you that, under “Kabila’s” presidency, the DRC transferred a monthly sum of sixty million dollars to the benefit of the master of Kigali?
No! One must be honest and respect historical truth. I relayed a statement made by President Felix Tshisekedi who said he found an inexplicable situation: sixty million dollars had to be paid to Rwanda every month. He put an end to this practice. The head of state made this statement in public. I don’t recall any reaction from the former regime. I conclude that this interruption is, without a doubt, one of the motivations for the current war.
BAW
